Landing at alternate LZ in Big T wash

A place to stretch the truth a little...
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RichardShaw
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Landing at alternate LZ in Big T wash

Post by RichardShaw » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:27 pm

Set-up was a little on the conservative side. After seeing the video a right hand approach may be safer for the vehicles on the road.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NajeWn8sURk
"Keep thy airspeed up, lest the ground come from below and smite thee".
William Kershner

Richard

greblo
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Post by greblo » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:47 pm

Thanks for posting the video Richard. I think many pilots in the club may prefer this landing area over the one we've been using for years, but time will tell. I like the fact that his has ample parking, dirt instead of rocks, and further from horse property.

I'm sure Jonesy will be glad that there's no big tree in the way
Safety is a book, not a word
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JD
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Post by JD » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:06 pm

Richard,

Nice landing as always and great choice of Hang 'Em High by Booker T.

I've never heard of an alternate LZ in Big T Wash or seen anything posted on the SHGA website. From your video this appears to be the field by the intersection of Oro Vista Ave and Big-T Rd. http://goo.gl/maps/JYpGe It looks like a decent place to bail out. Any comments or protocols from the board? Bueller?

BTW - A few weeks ago a vehicle entered and recovered from a solo spin-out on Hwy 18 while I was 250-300' overhead. It was pretty clear the driver was looking up and not at the road. I expect the onus would have been on him had he crashed and filed suit. I really don't see your left-hand approach as a driver issue.

What concerns me is being potentially exposed to lee-side rotor, turbulence or sink from the ridge-line to the East. Regardless of the wind aloft, the prevailing Crescenta Valley flow is from the East and a flight path near that ridge-line may be lee-side.

A pilot choosing to set-up by this field may want to plan a downwind along the middle of the wash to allow the maximum degree of adjustment to glide path and freedom from orographic turbulence.

2p from DQ

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RichardShaw
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Post by RichardShaw » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:28 am

I never saw the red convertible until I reviewed the video (not that there was a problem with being to close). I didn't experience any abnormal sink on approach however I found a little bit of lift at my staging area (I cut out the 4 or 5 turns while in zero sink. The LZ is also slightly up hill. It may deserve a walk thru. The location is where Oro Vista doubles back from Big T
"Keep thy airspeed up, lest the ground come from below and smite thee".
William Kershner

Richard

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Malury
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Post by Malury » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:49 pm

Wow! A new LZ. It's good to have a choice of LZs out there. I'm gonna go walk it soon. Thanks for sharing Richard.

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Post by jcflies » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:15 pm

Hey Richard,
You are my new HERO! Thank you so much for paving the way to the dim, mysterious east. I walked the debris and rock-strewn, glider-snatching malevolent tree laden l/z in the Big T wash today thinking, "NO WAY will I risk landing here anytime soon."

Then we walked your l/z. All those involved went ballistic! What an EXCELLENT place to land! I'm in! WIll be crossing quite soon, b/c I KNOW that's an l/z I can handle! Thanks SO MUCH for your post! And LOVE how easy it is to spot from the air!

you ROCK!
janyce
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RichardShaw
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Post by RichardShaw » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:57 pm

I'd love to take the credit for finding this spot, But someone showed it to me.
"Keep thy airspeed up, lest the ground come from below and smite thee".
William Kershner

Richard

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JD
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Post by JD » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:19 am

RichardShaw wrote:I'd love to take the credit for finding this spot, But someone showed it to me.
So who's been keeping secrets from the rest of us mere mortals?

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RichardShaw
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Post by RichardShaw » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:28 am

It was discovered when a group of us launched Lukens and one of us landed there, I chickened out on the way back to Kagel over middle T, turned around to land at the normal big T LZ and was called over to land there.
"Keep thy airspeed up, lest the ground come from below and smite thee".
William Kershner

Richard

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JD
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Post by JD » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:14 am

RichardShaw wrote:It was discovered when a group of us launched Lukens and one of us landed there, I chickened out on the way back to Kagel over middle T, turned around to land at the normal big T LZ and was called over to land there.
By 'discovered' do you perhaps mean that the pilot got disoriented and missed the regular bailout?

Mind you, this comment is coming from somebody who formerly regarded pretty much anywhere as a prospective LZ.

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RichardShaw
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Post by RichardShaw » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:24 am

Lets put it this way, When I fly with this pilot I often land at places I never had before.
"Keep thy airspeed up, lest the ground come from below and smite thee".
William Kershner

Richard

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JD
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Post by JD » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:00 pm

RichardShaw wrote:Lets put it this way, When I fly with this pilot I often land at places I never had before.
Great. Hopefully, we'll all be enjoying your 'New Bailout of the Month' videolog from now on. :D

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Jim
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Look Before You Land

Post by Jim » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:58 pm

I lost sight of Ron Keinan while still on the Big T ridge. Thinking he may have gone out to this new LZ I headed out for a look. I wasn't quite sure where it was but remembered from Rich's video that it was near the road and next to hills. After a pass, I decided it was better to stay with the familiar. OOPS, too late, too far, I was committed.

The trees had me a little worried as well as the bushes, the drop-off to more trees at the right in the wash and the end of the runway (trees) with no view to an overshoot. So I set up high enough that I wouldn't need to worry about the trees at the upper end. Too high. A couple of S-turns and I lined up on the clear path but hedged my bets (and speed) by pointing up toward the half-circle bordered by the main road and the road to the wash (this can be seen in the video). It meant I had to miss the Armco guardrail and the two street signs, if I didn't bring it in to the depression that is the proper LZ. Of course, I overshot.

I got over the rail and steered around the taller sign to land safely (on my feet!) in the proposed parking area (the turnout) with my wingtip just into the bike lane of the main street. Great for retrieval, bad for underwear.

Rob Burgis, Ron and I walked the entire LZ before we left. Ron and I are still ambivalent about this for a topless glider. Rob is convinced it's better than the old standby, especially since there is more dirt and few rocks in the desired path. Right-hand approach from the wash side may be preferable to some, left better if you notice that Richard followed the LZ terrain which is to say, follow the tree line but don't go over them and keep turning to the left until lined up with the path. Going wide to the right would be disastrous. Wind direction is straight up the canyon, in line with the clear path, if there's wind, which was also missing for me.

Caveat emptor. This LZ is doable, especially for lower performance ships. Definitely take the time to look at this one, as you probably have the old one. Visualize your approaches and get a good feel for the tree height, which is much lower than it appears from the air. Decide on a bailout. I think mine may be best except for the steel. And be aware that there is hidden stuff at the right side of the path: at least a large concrete drainage pipe and a rock pile that I noticed, never mind the drop into the wash trees. Leave earlier than you would, if the wash is your normal LZ and you're used to scratching around low there.

But go look first.

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BudRob
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Post by BudRob » Sun May 25, 2014 6:56 am

I landed my Litespeed safely at this LZ yesterday but all did not go quite as planned. I had walked it twice before and had decided that I would make a right hand approach over the wash trees and come straight into the dirt path, avoiding the final left turn that Richard made. However after circling to my right I could see that I would drop below a steep hill on the west side of the wash on my last turn and I was concerned about getting rotored, Since the wind was slightly west near the ground that day. So I changed directions and made a very big left turn approach which brought me over the same trees, coming in exactly where I had planned to with the right approach. I landed on the planned pathway, using up about 1/2 of the available space in front of me. Having now landed there, I believe that the left hand approach is preferable because it gives you the option to come in over the highway and get in front of the trees before turning left onto the landing path (as Richard did) or go way wide and come in over the trees as I did.

I believe that I am the first topless glider to land there and wanted to post this for others so they would know that it is doable. If the approach is done right this is really a better LZ than the other. The landing area itself is much more forgiving than the original LZ because it is rock free and just about as long. There are a few bushes along the path that could be removed that would make it better but even so this is my new land out LZ for Big-T. I just don't like the rocks and piles of debris along the old LZ. The retrieve in this one is much easier as well since it is closer and also has a nice turn out for car parking.

I recommend anyone considering this LZ to walk it first. Please hack out the stray bushes along the landing path while you are there.

One last though: although I like this LZ better than the other Big-T LZ, landing short or long would not be a good thing here. If you carry a drag chute this may be a good place to use it, particularly in a high performance glider.

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OP
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Post by OP » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:54 pm

Here is a video of landing a topless at this LZ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCEOiYZ4SZM Note this video has been mirrored. We have a lot of left handed, right brained and Australians. I'm trying to make it accessible to our differently-abled pilots.


I prefer it over the old LZ for one reason, wind. This thing is in a venturi of sorts. Seems to have some flow while the OG LZ is nearly always dead.

Image

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BudRob
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Post by BudRob » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:07 pm

OP,

This is a very strange place where you landed. When I landed there, the road was on the left side of the LZ when I made my final, and the cars drove on the right side of the street. This looks like some kind of a parallel "mirror image" universe to me, particularly since the cars are driving on the left side of the road. Either you flew though a wormhole before landing or you used a really good video trick.

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Busto
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Post by Busto » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:01 pm

If you read the whole thing… he mentions that it's mirrored. For those that have a laptop, place it against a mirror and watch it in the mirror.

It makes more sense.
Last edited by Busto on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JD
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Reflecting on OP's video....

Post by JD » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:37 pm

"There's too much confusion", I can't get no relief
So I re-edited into something without grief.
All along the Big-T Wash, pilots kept the view
While the chase divers came and went, airsick hangs two.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emABLmW7m8A[/youtube]

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Lynn McLaughlin
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Post by Lynn McLaughlin » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:43 am

Actually this is very helpful! Thanks OP and Jonathan...

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Busto
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Post by Busto » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:08 am

Thanks Dietch…

Saved the day for those who may have thought there was a third site.

If you can keep the site clean it will show SHGA cares :wink:

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